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on his agenda. one being the next secretary of defense. did you expect to see chuck hagel of all people so embattled from both sides? >> well, yes, sort of. yourn, you know that john mccain hates the guy. you know, he -- and he didn't create a lot of friends toward the end of his time and throughout most of his time as a senator. because he didn't really tow the party line on policy. he broke with republicans on the iraq war. and so he oftentimes would give democrats a way of saying what they were doing was bipartisan and then had the sheen of the veblt of a guy like hagel so it's this guy that's been a thorn in their side the whole time. now here he is he might be elevated to secretary of defense. and you could see that's going to bother the same types of people that seem to be bothered by every other person that's floated by obama. and that's mccain and graham and those fellas. >> but we've heard about this mccain not liking or hating chuck hagel. what's that about? what's their history? from one maverick to another. >> exactly. there's only so much room in the senate for mavericks. y
, but by and large entitlements are left alone which has been to be dealt with at some point, big cuts in defense. we haven't seen that in 30 years. we go back to paying the taxes when bill clinton was president of the united states and the economy was a hell of a lot better when bill clinton was president than it is today. i don't think the fiscal cliff is all that bad a deal looking at it from the point of view of a progressive democrat. it's not perfect, but i worry about ceos that are funding fix the debt because, you know, they got us into this in the first place. i don't have a lot of faith in their ability to get us out. one more thing, you know, if there's a deal between the democrats and the republicans, i guarantee you the democrats and the republicans will make out just fine. i'm not so sure about the american people. >> governor rendell -- thanks governor dean for that one. i want to pick up on something you said about kicking the can down the roads. one of the things that had been an issue had been taking the debt ceiling conversation off the table. republicans want to keep it as a point
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